| Author |
Message |
    
Anonymous
| | Posted on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 04:36 pm: | |
How is the insurance situation now? I have been with Avemco for builders insurance on my Express CT. My policy is coming up for renewal and they will only offer me liability for an annual premium of $1100.
I have made two attempts to contact Falcon. Neither call was returned.
Is/are there any other options the Express community can suggest? |
jharlow
| | Posted on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 05:07 pm: | |
Is the $1100 for a completed airplane? What declared Value? |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 05:14 pm: | |
John, I am not sure I can answer your question. If I have liability coverage only, what does the declared value have to do with it? Hul and occupants would not be covered, only damage done to others. The liability coverage would be 100k if that is what you mean. Terry Sack |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 05:25 pm: | |
Terry -
"Declared Value" simply referrs to hull coverage, or rather, replacement value of the aircraft should it be wrecked. |
jharlow
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 04:23 am: | |
Terry,
I chose to go with "not in motion" coverage and a million smooth on liability. Value of plane is 100k declared (below what I have insvested).My annual premium is around $2400. Once I'm on the ground and off the runway my plane is covered. I'm with Avemco also. Falcon would not cover me because I live on a grass runway DUH!!! IMHO it's much easier on the plane and tires. |
wayne
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 06:02 am: | |
this insurance is a crock, there is no set standard/rates. I'm with Falcon on both planes and fly off grass. Who knows... we are just"lucky" to get anything. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 06:35 pm: | |
I have a little more information in my quest to get insurance for my nearly complete Express. In an earlier post I mentioned that Avemco would provide liability coverage only. Liability coverage of $100k at an annual cost of $1100.
I finally got a response from Falcon. Jim Nelson was pretty easy to talk to. Falcon will provide hull coverage, and liability coverage. Coverage will cover first flight if that flight is made by an experienced pilot in type having gone through the Flight Advisor program or being a Flight Advisor himself.
A policy of $150k hull with $0 deductible, $100k bodily injury/property damaage, and $1.0Million aggregate less occupant coverage. Premium of $4200/year. For ground and taxi coverage only, the premium drops to $2325/year.
I could use plenty of advice from the group on Falcon's next requirement. For me to fly and be covered they want 10 hours dual. When I said I wanted to fly off the test time, at least 15 hours of it, Falcon said there would be no coverage not even liability. Their solution was to take dual from my CFI during the test period. Not sure how FAA would like that. Another solution was to fly my CFI out to Washington where the plane is, have him checked out and take my dual from him on the flight back to Ohio. For my personal peace of mind, I wanted to be thoroughly familiar with the airplane and systems before flying home.
My choices right now are to fly without coverage; get dual somewhere before I go to Washington; take a CFI with me to Washington. Anyone got a suggestion on how I can keep coverage and do the last part of the test program? Anyone near Ohio that could give me some dual?
Terry Sack
p.s. Tom, for the life of me I can't find my username or password |
Eric Holmberg (Erich)
| | Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 08:34 pm: | |
Hi Terry,
I'm not sure what flight testing your talking about, but from my understanding you are limited to a small testing area from the airport where the airplane is located. I'm not sure the FAA would allow a ferry permit all the way to Ohio.
What I plan on doing is renting the Express demonstrator in Olympia to get 10 to 15 hours of dual flight time before I test-fly my own plane.
As for testing the plane on a cross-country, that seems a bit odd to me. The whole idea of testing is to build your POH. You do this by testing to the limits that you wish to fly (which shouldn't exceed the limits of the airplane, of course). It's going to be hard to do this while trying to fly somewhere on a schedule.
Thanks for the insurance numbers.
Would you be covered on your first flight if you had at least 10 hours of time-in-type?
-Eric |
Wayne
| | Posted on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 12:02 pm: | |
Like I said , there is no standard, Falcon charges me $1000 more, for less coverage and a 10% deductable. Now that they are backed by the EAA they want you to participate in the flt adv. program. That part about getting duel always burns me. They and the FAA think just cause some snot-nosed kid is a CFI they are all powerful and qualified to teach you something. That is a crock, as I have been that young instructor years ago. We need to make realistic changes.
Where in Ohio are you, I might be able to get you some time , and when is your plane really going to be ready.
I don't think it is wise to set off on a long XC in a new plane that you aren't intimatly familar with, unless you have a thick logbook, (or wallet). |
MH
| | Posted on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 01:00 pm: | |
Terry,
Unfortunately flying the initial time with your CFI is not a legal option. The FAA is pretty adamant about Phase 1 flight testing (initial 25-40 hours), mandating that only 'essential crew members' be on-board during the flights. By their own clarification (that of Oklahoma City and many FSDO's), having a CFI along for instruction or ??? does not constitute an 'essential crew member'. They basically want 1 qualified person on board only for those hours. The only exception would be any aircraft that is required by FAR's to have 2 crew members for the safe operation of the aircraft (instruction doesn't count).
Also, like previously mentioned, those 25-40 hours are typically limited to a 25 or 50 nm radius of the base airport. Sometimes you can get that extended to 75 miles or so, but they won't issue a ferry permit to transport it home (outside the test area) during those Phase 1 hours.
Hope this information helps...
- Mike H. |
Gary Markwardt
| | Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2002 - 10:38 am: | |
Terry:
Having faced the same issues (I live in Michigan), here is my suggestion. Take 10 hrs. dual instruction in the Express demonstrator with Express CFI (John Klenke)to satisfy the insurance requirement. John has lots of experience flying the Express. The kit price usually includes 10 hrs. time in the Express demonstrator -- not sure if you bought the kit with this feature included. You must fly off the test period of 25 hr. (certified engine/prop combination) or 40 hr. (experimental prop or engine) within 50 miles of Olympia Airport. This requirement is part of the Airworthiness Certificate from the FAA. Get a copy of FAA Advisory Circular AC-90-89A for suggestions on what to do for you test flying. Mike H is correct that this time is pilot only unless you have a "required crew member" -- you could probably make a case for a second person to take data during some flight manuvers. Coming home to Ohio you will be flying over some very rugged terrain. I would strongly recommend completion of testing and all squawks repaired before you head home.
On insurance, I am with Avemco & carry the same limits you mentioned ($150K, no deductable, $1 mil. liability) and pay $5900/yr. It seemed like a ridiculous amount until I collapsed the nose gear with about 72 hr. on the plane. Avemco paid the entire bill, which was substantial, even $15/hr. for my time spent on repairs. I guess insurance is always too expensive until you need it!!! |
Terry Sack (Terrysack)
| | Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2002 - 01:58 pm: | |
Eric, Wayne, Mike, and Gary, thank you for promptly responding to my post.
I thought I had done a pretty good job of describing what Falcon insurance could and couldn't do but I think now there were some gaps or misinterpretations.
Falcon did indeed recommend that I take dual during the test period and that the CFI would have to be declared a necessary crewmember. I know that FAA would not permit that. I was trying to be light when saying I wonder what FAA would say. What FAA will permit and what Falcon wants are in real conflict here.
But I was not in any way suggesting that dual during a test period be conducted on the flight back to Ohio. The test period (40 hours in my case) would have to be flown off by a pilot with hours in type AND either a flight advisor or having gone through the flight advisor program for insurance coverage to be in effect. And the test area would be a small area around the Olympia airport.
Eric, I did ask if 10 hours in type would get me coverage. Falcon never directly answered that, although I asked two different ways.
Gary, you are absoutely correct about flying over some rugged terrain on the trip to Ohio. That's why I want to be thoroughly familiar with the plane and its systems before the trip. I was hoping to let Express fly off about 25 hours and I would fly off the remaining 15 before starting back to Ohio. With the weather in the Olympia area, and the desire to have a comprehensive test period, it could take me (maybe not John Klenke, but me) up to two weeks to fly off 15 hours and reduce data to a usable form. Throw in the time to fly home and I have used up vacation for a year. Now, if I have to take ten hours dual, and still want to fly off 15 hours in my airplane, I could tack on a week more.
Wayne, you gave me some real hope to achieve what I had wanted to do. I live in Dublin, Ohio a Columbus suburb. Where are you at? Right now, my airplane is having the interior installed and some adjustments to engine cooling/baffling. There is also some final tweaking on the avionics. |
Mark Rich
| | Posted on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 03:30 pm: | |
This is deja vu. Falcon told me nearly the same thing (but required 15 hrs dual). My plan was to get the dual hours in the factory demonstrator, have Larry fly off the first 10 hours and fly the rest myself.
On my first trip to WA, I got in 6 hours in two days. Given the hourly cost of the demonstrator and John's time, I decided it made more sense to have John fly off the rest of the 25 hours for phase 1 and finish the dual with John in my own plane. (I was concerned that my CT tail wouldn't fly the same as the factory demonstrator).
The weather mostly cooperated so I got the remainder of the dual time in 3 days. Total time in Olympia was only about 7 days for both trips.
15 hours dual was about right, I would probably been ok at the 10 hour mark but the extra 5 was good for my skills. If I had to do it over, I would have done all of the dual time in my own plane. Better to get familiar with your own planes quirks and instruments.
I've now had the plane a month and am loving it. |
Terry Sack
New member
Username: Terrysack
Post Number: 2
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 04:39 pm: | |
I've got some more fuel for the insurance fire. At Larry Olson's suggestion I spoke to Bob Sorrell today. Bob is the agent that Express uses for insurance. Bob has followed Express for some time and is an advocate of the plane.
Bob feels that AIG is the only reasonable game in town these days. AIG wants a minimum of 500 hours PIC and 20 hours make and model. Also, no grass strip coverage (sorry Wayne).
The most intriquing part is that to get the 20 hours Bob adds John Klenke to the policy as overseeing CFI until the 20 hours are accumulated. John then decides when you are ready to fly solo just like in your student days. After 20 hours John comes off the policy.
Based on some preliminary data I gave to Bob, he said that 1.0 million liability coverage, 160,000 hull value and 100 deductible would be about 3500 per year. I have to send him more explicit details before he can give me an exact quote.
To save you looking for an earlier post I made,(on November 15, 2002) Falcon quoted me a policy of 150,000 hull, 0 deductible, 100,000 bodily injury/property damage, 1.0 million aggregate less occupant coverage, for 4200 per year. First flight would be covered only if the flight was made by a Flight Advisor or an experienced pilot in type that had gone through the Flight Advisor program. Coverage would not start until you had 10 hours of dual.
Bob Sorrell would like to see an Express Owners Association started to get a group rate. However, he gave numbers like 100 airplanes. I don't know how many are flying but didn't think it was more than 50. Anybody know? Bob thought that even with 50, and the rate of completions from the Builder Assist Program, that a group rate might be possible. If you are interested in talking to Bob his number is 1-888-265-0844. |
wayne norris
New member
Username: Wayne_norris
Post Number: 6
Registered: 02-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 07, 2003 - 02:33 pm: | |
well it's getting that time again, time to pay the devil. What are the insurance costs running now? Last years was 5300$ for 125K and 10%deductable. OUCH. that was first flt coverage though so I expect it to be alot lower this time, haha. |
Gary Markwardt
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, April 07, 2003 - 03:25 pm: | |
Wayne:
My insurance is due in May. Last year Avemco was $5,700 for $150K hull, $1 Mil liability with $0 deductable if an EAA member. Quote for same converage this year was $9337 (up 64%)with $1000 deductible since Avemco is not participating any longer with EAA. The EAA Plan with Falcon Insurance quoted $4200 with no deductable. Guess where I'm going??? Falcon is at 1-866-647-4322 |
LOUIE LACY
New member
Username: Llacy
Post Number: 76
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 03:06 pm: | |
I know this is not directly related to building an Express but would like some comments about life insurance. My company paid insurance just ran out and in the process of shopping for more I find a huge difference in prices. One individual(salesman ) said the problem was flying experimental Aircraft. Has anyone had a problem with this and how much greater is the cost?? |
Allyn Roe
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 03:46 pm: | |
Louie,
I ran into the same problem and was able to get an $80/month policy down to $25/month. The previous company said that experimental flying was the issue. The new company I used is called the Pilot Insurance Center. www.piclife.com The policy is written by AIG and I have had no problems except it did take a long time for the policy to go through; about two months!
It would be worth a call.
Allyn
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