| Author | Message | ||
     tom ware (Tommie) |
what resin other than Dow Vynal Ester is anyone using in construction? since my hanger is under my house ,family members are complaining about the odor! What with winter around the corner, i can not keep the garage/hanger doors open! Thanks Tom Ware | ||
| Tom R. Hutchison (Tomhutch) |
I think you are pretty much stuck with the odor (I kind of like it). The aroma you smell is the Styrene component of the Vinyl Ester Resin. Any Vinyl Ester resin will have it. Since the parts you are working with were created with Vinyl Ester Resin, I don't think you want to change to any other epoxy system. A better ventilation system of some kind is probably the answer. Tom | ||
| Eric Holmberg (Erich) |
Can you put a fan in a window in your basement to exhaust some of the air outside? That would draw the air from the house into the basement instead of the other way around. You wouldn't need much of a fan as long as you only have one door back to the house. -Eric | ||
| Bill C |
Tommie: Actually I believe it is OK to use Epoxy resin with Vinyl Ester parts. A different smell, but not as much of it. Downside is the potential for adverse reaction and extended curing time. Eric's fan sounds like the best bet Bill C | ||
| tom ware (Tommie) |
thanks everyone! Smell! what smell? Im use to it and it does make me feel like im doing something one my project! will try the fan . if not will be forced to get rid of a good wife! not! besides I got this plane project for my wife! Not a bad trade!!!! just kiding honey! | ||
| Jeff Dingbaum (Aviators) |
I use a fan in the basement window with excellent results. I use a thin sheet of plastic drop cloth taped to the wall to seal off most of the holes around the fan so that the air drawn by the fan is actually going outside. One very important thing that I have discovered. If you have a woodburning fireplace DO NOT use it the night you are using resin. Even with the fan in place the fire sucks up so much air that it brings the stink back upstairs. The only time my wife complained was when we had a fire burning. Jeff | ||
| Hans Georg Schmid (Hgschmid) |
As I had in the beginning problems to find Vinylester in Switzerland I went to the owner of the Swiss Composite Shop, Mr. Rolf Suter, who sells (almost) all you need for composite construction with the exception of Vinylester. He is a chemical engineer with a lot of experience in composites. He explained to me that once Vinylester (and Epoxy) are cured they are inert, which means chemically dead. According to him it is possible to substitute Epoxy and you should have no problems. There is however no procedure to do so nor tests made to proof the quality and strength of the glued parts. If I would change from one system to the other I would probably first glue several parts made from vinylester and Epoxy together, let them thoroughly cure and would then have them tested for strength. HG | ||
| wayne |
I think you will find that Epoxy will work over VER or PER but not the other way around. It's like latex and oil paint, there is a one way street there. Keep it all the same, but I did use some 5/30 min epoxy to hold small parts. | ||
| Reinhard Metz |
When I built my Express, I also installed a fan in the basement to create negative pressure. It worked very well, and still gets used now every once in a while for some stinky basement project. I added a 0 to 6 hour timer, so the fan could shut off automatically. The only time the fan was not enough was during wing close-out. You do get to kind of like the smell. My plane's been done for over 4 years, and it's actually exciting and brings back great memories when I occasionally use resin and glass now to make or fix something. That's another one of the nice side benefits of building the airplane - you pick up a bunch of technologies you can apply elsewhere - kind of like the space program, ha, ha! (use that one to justify this project to your spouse!!) Reinhard Metz | ||
| Gary Markwardt |
Re: changing resins, I would be VERY cautious. Lancair uses an epoxy resin, but it requires the wing fuel bays be coated for fuel resistance. That's not a problem with the vinyl ester resin. From what little I've read, epoxies have good chemical resistance, but not to all solvents, particularly alcohols. Go for the fan!!! | ||
| Glen Farley |
Do not switch resin systems in mid-stream! That could be very dangerous as the reduced bonding strength between systems could seriously weaken a joint - not to mention having different chemical resistance properties (see above). You CAN switch brands of vinyl ester resins- they are chemically similar - but they all have the same styrene smell - so why switch ? Just use a fan - and get used to it. After a while - you hardly notice it! | ||
| Jeff Dingbaum New member Username: Aviators Post Number: 36 Registered: 12-2000 |
Has anyone had milky resin? I just got a batch from Aircraft Sruce that was milky when I took off the cap. I just put in some mekp to see what would happen, but it isn't done yet. I did a quick internet search and it maybe due to water absorption, but that it was reversible. Anyone else seen this? I'm wondering if I should just send it back. Jeff | ||
| Gary Markwardt New member Username: Gmark Post Number: 45 Registered: 12-1999 |
I ordered some vinyl ester resin from Aircraft Spruce and it has gelled up. One of my fellow EAA'ers tells me you can heat it in the oven for 30-45 minutes at 160F. and it will reliquify. Has anybody tried this or should I just order more? I am not using it for anything too structural -- just some work on my wheel pants. | ||
| Jeff Dingbaum Moderator Username: Aviators Post Number: 40 Registered: 12-2000 |
Gary, Call up Spruce and have them take it back. I wonder if this was some old stuff that they lost on the shelf somewhere. I have had resin that is 18 months old that is still ok, a little thicker, but still pretty good. Good luck. Jeff | ||
| Joe Chisolm New member Username: Jchisolm Post Number: 15 Registered: 11-2001 |
No need to buy the expensive vinyl ester for non structural parts. I have used regular polyester tooling resin for things like air vents, some covers, etc. I have bonded it over an existing vinyl ester part with good luck. You can get polyester resin from almost any fiberglass vendor. Use MEKP just like VE but play with the amounts to adjust your cure time. | ||
| Gary H. Wolfelt New member Username: Wolfelt Post Number: 53 Registered: 11-2003 |
I got some crappy resin from AC Spruce too. I just ended up throwing it out and going elsewhere. My guess is that they don't sell enough of it to keep it moving off of the shelf and so it gets old and nasty. GHW | ||
| Matthew Byrne New member Username: Mbyrne Post Number: 46 Registered: 07-2003 |
I have had a two gallons out of about ten that were no good from spruce. They sent out a replacement right away, overnighted no cost. They checked the lot number and told me it was past due. The guy told me that they need to order it in small lots as they can only keep it on the shelf for 3 months at a time. No idea if that is true, but that is what I was told. Last I read was that VA should only be used for structural parts for 6 months from date of promotion. | ||
| Mark Rich New member Username: Mrich Post Number: 22 Registered: 01-2003 |
I think the "heat up the resin" trick only works with epoxy. The chemistry is different for Vinylester. VE gets gooey because polymers start to bond. The styrene in VE (that provides the VE smell) holds off the interlinking until catalyst is added. With epoxy, the polymers in one of the parts will clump together and crystallize but can be broken apart with heat. Epoxy won't form long, strong chains until part A meets part B. Putting VE in the oven will probably just annoy your wife. | ||
| Gary Markwardt New member Username: Gmark Post Number: 46 Registered: 12-1999 |
Thanks Mark. The smell DOES annoy my wife. That's why I asked first. The heating idea sounded too good to be true. Guess I'll call Spruce & see what they have to say. | ||
| Joe Chisolm New member Username: Jchisolm Post Number: 17 Registered: 11-2001 |
Gary W, Where did you get VE "else where"? I'd like to try and find a distributor that sells enough to keep fresh supplies. When I lived in PHX I was able to get "straight" VE and promote it myself. It was easy to do and non-promoted has a good shelf life. In searching yesterday I found listings for new styrene free VE. For me I dont really mind the smell (just means I'm getting closer to flying) but might be worth a look for those of you having issues. Google vinyl ester resin | ||
| Gary H. Wolfelt New member Username: Wolfelt Post Number: 54 Registered: 11-2003 |
Joe (and everyone else that is interested). I have been buying my VE in 5 gallon buckets from a company called Fiberlay when I am working out in Washington. Their web address is: http://www.fiberlay.com/ and they have just about every kind of composite product that you might need. GHW | ||
| Gary Markwardt New member Username: Gmark Post Number: 47 Registered: 12-1999 |
Interesting that their description of the regular vinyl ester resin says "use within 2 months of purchase". Must be promoted just like Spruce. You must be working day & night to use up 5 gal. in 2 months time.  | ||
| Sven-Ake Eriksson New member Username: Sven Post Number: 24 Registered: 11-1999 |
I found out that storing promoted resin in a fridge will keep it fresh for at least six to nine months. Temperature need to be lower than 45F. The origin of this idea was from a local company that consumed this stuff by the barrels and stored them outside in temperatures down to -40F. They told me the promoted resin lasted much longer and they only had to take it inside to warm it to normal room temp before using it. In Sweden I get my resin from a manufacturer named Reichhold and I buy it unpromoted in 5 gallon batchsize. Chemically aging of this stuff will depend on temperature and it slows down to roughly half the speed for every 20F you lower the surrounding temp. | ||
| Jay Villalva New member Username: Jay Post Number: 12 Registered: 11-1999 |
Another location for purchasing unpromoted resin is Glasair. They sale it by the gallon and have the required promotion chemicals. www.glasairaviation.com | ||
| Gary H. Wolfelt New member Username: Wolfelt Post Number: 55 Registered: 11-2003 |
Gary, Yep we are working very hard for two week sessions at a time 40 to 50 hours a week. So I would go through a 5 gallon pail everytime I go to Washington. Sometimes, I even had to buy a little more from the guy that owns the hanger. Building a closing up the wings (no factory preassembly) used up a BUNCH of resin. GHW PS: I love the smell of this stuff! |