| Author | Message | ||
     Robert B. Wallace |
I have a contin. IO550-g now being installed in a series 90. Seem to be going in circles as to choices for propellers. Some of the issues are the extention required. Hartzel has a unit made for A-36 conversion , PHC-C3YF-1RF/F8468A-6R, that has a 3.25" dimision from flange to center of propeller without ability to have extention, for around $7,000 with spinner. The new factory demo has a hartzel with about a 6" distance, but is about $9,500 +/-. There are two blade units available from Piper malibus with TsIO-550 that are 80" for less than $5,000. Cost is certainly an issue, but equaly are the issues of performance and complexity in installation. Any thoughts ? | ||
| Robert B. Wallace |
HAVE FOUND WHAT I NEED, DON'T KNOW HOW TO DELETE DISCUSSION???? | ||
| Gary Markwardt |
Bob: I am facing the same decision with an IO-550 prop choice. Where did you come out on yours? I'd be interested to hear your reasoning for whatever choice you made. Thanks, | ||
| Kevin Dennes (Kdennes) |
We are at the point of needing to place an order for engine and prop. We have decided on the Continental IO550. The two props that seem to be in favour at the moment is the Hartzell 3 blade, schimitar type and the other is the 4 blade MT. I saw these on aircraft at the factory back in September. QUESTION... Is there anyone out there with an MT on their aircraft that can offer an opinion on the performance and reliability etc. Larry is not prepared to offer an opinion owing to the fact that he says they do not have enough experience history to compare the two yet. I have been flying a friend's Lancair 4 with the MT and it seems a bit quieter than I would have expected with a metal prop. Then, I agree that it is not a very scientific evaluation. Regards. Kevin Dennes (from "Downunder") | ||
| Bob Gisburne (Gisburne) |
Kevin: I owned a Lycoming powered Malibu Mirage. During my search, I flew an IO550 powered Malibu with a 4-blade MT prop... (STC provided by VK Leasing in Ft. Lauderdale I think). It was faster and smoother than the Lycoming powered Mirage. There is a math formula (that I don't recall) that shows there is an INVERSE relationship between cabin noise and the number of blades. ie - more blades equals quieter. Piper put a four blade Hartzell on the 1999 and newer Mirages. They saw a few knots in speed improvement, but much smoother operation. You may want to contact Jet Prop DLX, LLC in Spokane, WA. They remove Lycoming and Continental engines/props from Malibu/Mirage airfranes and install a PT-6 turbine. They may deal on two, three and four blade props off both Continentals and Lycomings. Enjoy! Bob Gisburne N4382A | ||
| henri walser (43henri) |
hello all prop-fan for a big engine, since a few year i am searcing for my express a prop. finally i by a MT-prop for this two reasen: half of the weight of a metall-prop, and seconde if you by a Mt-prop you can order the prop with a extension of your needs witch is a fix part of the props, no need some screw in some fancy extension. bestt regards from europ henri walser | ||
| Gary Markwardt |
One consideration is that an MT prop with IO-550 is not a certified engine/prop combination. So, the FAA will require 40 hrs. flyoff before leaving the airport area, carrying passengers, etc. The Hartzell 3 blade is certified for a production aircraft; so, only a 25 hr. flyoff is required. Not a big deal, but something to know in advance of deciding. | ||
| henri walser (43henri) |
Hello again from Europ. I seen that most of the Expressbuilder which has to select a Propeller dont now the webside of MT-Propeller. Unter www.mt-propeller.com You will see al the necessary detail etc. For me the most importend point to buy a Mt-props is, You need no extension, the prop-hub is a part of the propeller. Best regards Henri | ||
| Drew Fawcett New member Username: Drew Post Number: 1 Registered: 03-2003 |
Hi Guys I have a TCM IO550 N1B going into a Series 2000 If any of you have experience with this engine & a prop I would like to hear about it. I am leaning towards a Hartzell 3 blade at the moment (for the 25 hrs vs 40 mainly but also cost) But I need to know all of the prop type number. Thanks for any response - Drew | ||
| Tom R. Hutchison New member Username: Tomhutch Post Number: 116 Registered: 01-2003 |
According to the Hartzell website: http://www.hartzellprop.com/kitplane/index_kitplane.htm Propeller PHC-J3YF-1RF/F7691 Spinner C-3575-1P Governor CONSULT EXPRESS Tom | ||
| Drew Fawcett New member Username: Drew Post Number: 2 Registered: 03-2003 |
Thanks Tom Can anyone using this combination tell me how the cruise performance is? Has anyone used a stock Hartzell prop with the io550? How's the performance with that? -Drew | ||
| Gary Markwardt Unregistered guest |
Drew: I am flying an IO-550-N1B with a Hartzell 3 blade prop PHC-G3YF-1RF/F7691. Cruise is +/- 175 kts. When I flew home from OLM, I was flying along side Doug Hoff's plane which has an IO-550 with a 4 blade MT. At 9500 ft., there was no discernable difference in cruise performance. I suspect the 4 blade may climb a bit better, but at 1500-2000 ft./min, who needs more climb? The major advantage with the MT prop is better ground clearance since it has shorter blades, which could be useful on grass fields. Overall, I don't think the MT prop is worth the extra $$$. My $.02 worth. | ||
| Werner Maag Unregistered guest |
Finally I am looking seroiusly into ordering the engine. It seems to be the IO550 N1b or G (2500RPM, 285 hp) a bit less noisy, As Larry is offering the engine at the same price as the factory (40k) has anyone found other sources for good engine deals? | ||
| Terry Sack New member Username: Terrysack Post Number: 4 Registered: 11-2002 |
I've just returned from Olympia flying off the forty hours for my IO-550N Continental and MT four blade prop combination. Everything was going pretty well with the usual tweaks and adjustments. Before I got out there the sprag clutch was replaced because it was slipping. The starter was a bit of a problem for us. It turned the four blade prop very slowly. You could easily count each blade as it went by. In fact you could eat a sandwich between blades. After 15 hours or so the starter would not turn the prop at all. It was fried. A new starter was put on and all went well for another ten hours or so and then the sprag clutch started to slip again. However, when the engine was cold it would start right up. If a restart was tried right after shutdown, it would start right up. If you waited for a half hour to an hour the sprag clutch would slip. My confidence in the engine is pretty low at this time. Funny in a way, as I had no concerns for this engine being a problem when I went out to Olympia. I should mention that this is a new engine and prop. Has anyone got a clue to what the problem might be? Continental so far thinks it is a battery problem. Not so. I have never had less than 13 volts even after repeated attempts at start. What have others with this engine/prop combination experienced? I think Hoff and Hodge have this same combo. Are there others? | ||
| Eric Holmberg New member Username: Erich Post Number: 56 Registered: 05-2002 |
Hi Terry, Where is your battery? If the wiring is long and not big enough, you will not have enough voltage at the starter to due losses in the wiring. You can test this by measuring the voltage at the starter while cranking and at the battery while cranking and see what the differences are. -Eric | ||
| Del Magsam New member Username: Del Post Number: 1 Registered: 03-2003 |
or maybe a loose ground strap between engine and battery. | ||
| Kevin Dennes New member Username: Kdennes Post Number: 60 Registered: 01-2001 |
Terry. I do not have any answers for your problems apart from those given by Eric and Del because we haven't started ours up yet. We have exactly the same combination as yours and it sure makes me a bit nervous. Our battery is on the firewall and the length of the cable from the solenoid to the starter is only about 10 inches. Kevin (from Downunder) | ||
| Eric Holmberg New member Username: Erich Post Number: 57 Registered: 05-2002 |
Kevin, Assuming that Terry's problem is voltage at the starter, I wouldn't worry about any problems if your lead length is only 10 inches. I know that some people are placing the battery in the rear of the aircraft which is good for CG and battery life (due to less heat and vibration), but it requires substantially larger battery cables to prevent excessive power losses. These cables will be rather heavy, too  -Eric | ||
| Terry Sack New member Username: Terrysack Post Number: 5 Registered: 11-2002 |
Thanks for your input guys. The battery is mounted on the firewall and connected with #00 both on the positive and on the ground. The leads are about ten inches. Voltage has not been less than 13 volts at any time. I just got word today that Continental has finally admitted that they have been having problems with the starter drives they have been using. They are sending out a new type for me to try. We'll see. Kevin, they engine runs GREAT. You will love it. I just hope I am not an indicator that others will have a similar problem with starters. Not fun. | ||
| Phil & Margie Hodge New member Username: N410mp Post Number: 2 Registered: 01-2000 |
Terry - As you say, I have the same combination of IO550 and 4 blade MT. After 167 hours I've had none of the problems you've had, so I'm afraid I can't offer any suggestions. Hopefully Continental can. Phil | ||
| Terry Sack New member Username: Terrysack Post Number: 12 Registered: 11-2002 |
It's been a while since I updated everyone on my propeller re-install. As a refresher, 456TS is a CT with the IO-550N and 4 blade MT propeller MTV 14D 188-118. I banged up the prop. when I couldn't keep the engine running at low idle. I had to use high idle. A brake slipped and I nipped the end of the prop. off. After overhaul by MT Propeller of Florida I am back in business. Or so I thought. While waiting for the prop to get back I had the fuel pump removed and sent off for disassembly and inspection. No problems found. The engine was run on a stand for an hour at various settings and the low and high idle set. Today I did about 30 minutes of taxiing at low and high rpm (850 to about 1700) and all seemed well. I took off for a short hop and returned to the airport. While taxiing in the engine quit! My very original problem. After several attempts at restart, I finally got it back to the hangar but I had to bump the low boost to keep it running. Each time the engine appeared to start and then died. I am beginning to suspect heat under the cowl is vaporizing the fuel during taxi after a good run. If anyone has any other suggestions I will check them out. Thinking back, each time I have had this problem is after landing and during taxi. On my plane the boost pump is not used except during the start. Does anyone know if the engine driven pump is adequate to keep enough fuel flowing at idle to keep vapor lock from forming? During my many restarts, I used normal starting procedures with the low boost on. The engine will not run well with low boost on and you need to cut it off after start. I am leaning (no pun intended) to insulating every fuel lead in the engine compartment to keep heat off. I am also thinking of changing or modifying the aux. boost pump so I can leave it on during takeoff and landing. Any thoughts on this? I'll be calling Continental and Express in the morning but thought I would get some good advice from the readers. | ||
| wayne Unregistered guest |
I had similar problems with the engine wanting to die taxing back in, in hot wx, and needed to run the aux pump. I made a shield to cover the aux pump as it is mounted on the lower front side of the FW. Light flashing with some insulation FG. Problem is that the fuel in the line between the aux pump and the engine pump is boiling and the engine pump cant suck vapors. fire sleave over all fuel lines ahead of the FW to help insulate them . Continentals aren't my forte | ||
| Phil & Margie Hodge New member Username: N410mp Post Number: 17 Registered: 01-2000 |
Terry - I have the same problem in my version of the same plane. It also happens in cold weather, but only after landing after a long flight. Engine heat seems like it might make more difference than ambient temperature, if in fact temp is the problem. I'm scheduled for annual in 3 weeks, and am doing this one with an experienced A&P looking over my shoulder. That is one of the nagging questions on my squawk list that I've not been able to figure out on my own, and I'm hoping the A&P will be able to help. I also plan to do Continental's SID97-3a "Procedures and Specifications for Adjustment of Teledyne Continental Motors Continuous Flow Fuel Injection Systems." I'll let you know if I learn anything. Phil | ||
| Jerry Sjostrand New member Username: Jerry Post Number: 40 Registered: 08-1999 |
Although I had (I sold the Express in November) the TCM IO360 engine in my Express, I learned early on that constant monitoring of the fuel flows and pressures is very important. I had an engine heating problem on climb and then found the fuel flow was low so the engine was not getting enough "cooling fuel". The TCM manual calls for a flow and pressure check every 100 or 150 hours I believe. Also, I made sure I firesleeved all the fuel lines plus I put a cooling shroud over the gas coalator and the fuel pump. I still had exposed aluminum fuel lines across the firewall and that may have been the cause of some "hot starting" problems. Fuel vaporization is a "big" problem for all airplanes.  | ||
| Terry Sack New member Username: Terrysack Post Number: 13 Registered: 11-2002 |
Thanks for the help. I am becoming pretty convinced that heat is my problem. I will look into the heat shields for gascolator and fuel pump and firesleeving. Is there a way I can adjust the fuel flow out of the aux pump so I can use it during takeoffs and landings? Or am I treading where I don't want to go? By the way, Phil, the torque values for the prop is 80-85 foot lbs. Eat your wheaties first. | ||
| Kevin Dennes New member Username: Kdennes Post Number: 74 Registered: 01-2001 |
I have watched this subject with particular interest. As we are almost at the point of concluding all of the work "firewall forward" I would be most interested to receive any photographs or drawings of the heat shields that you are all speaking about. We have a new IO550N and our gascolator and fuel pump are mounted on the lower port side of the firewall. I am just having difficulty visualizing how the shields are made up. In OZ all engine fluid lines must have fire sleeving on the firewall forward side. Direct email is kdennes@ihug.com.au Regards. Kevin (from Downunder) | ||
| Jerry Sjostrand New member Username: Jerry Post Number: 41 Registered: 08-1999 |
Hello Kevin, Since I mentioned it I guess I should follow through with you on the "shroud/shield". I made a box out of aluminum with mounting flanges and the necessary openings to allow it to cover both the pump and colator and mount to the firewall. A scat tube (1/1/2") diverts air from the engine baffling to the shroud (cover). The cooling air is feed out the bottom. I will check to see if I have a picture and send later. | ||
| Kevin Dennes New member Username: Kdennes Post Number: 75 Registered: 01-2001 |
Hi Jerry. Thank you for your help. I would appreciate the photographs too, if you have one or more. I thought I should also mention that I spoke to a highly experienced engineer today and he mentioned that he knew the problem very well. However he says that he has always been able to overcome the problem in a different way. He said that most of the larger engines (that we have) usually have their idle revs set too low at about 600 - 650 RPM and he always sets troublesome engines to 700 RPM and that when the mixture lever is moved towards lean to idle cut-off, the RPM should increase by 75 RPM just before the engine finally quits. He says that it is then very rare indeed for an engine to quit after landing and during the taxi if these figures are produced. Just thought I would mention his comments. Regards. Kevin (from Downunder) | ||
| Terry Sack New member Username: Terrysack Post Number: 14 Registered: 11-2002 |
Kevin, my idle is 800 rpm as recommended by Continental, I get a 75 rpm increase as the mixture is reduced to cutoff but the engine quits during taxi if the engine is hot. After thinking about my circumstances, and considering the comments received here, I am convinced that the insulation of fuel lines, shrouding of gascolator and aux. fuel pump, and running the aux. fuel pump at least during taxi operations is the way to go. | ||
| Terry Sack New member Username: Terrysack Post Number: 20 Registered: 11-2002 |
Here's an update on fuel heating problems. I put firesleeve on all of the lines in the cowl. The shrouds around the gascolator and aux. pump were being deferred to annual. Everything was going pretty good until this humid weather hit. In fact, I was becoming convinced that firesleeve alone solved the problem and that enough fuel was in the gascolator and aux. fuel pump that vaporization was minimized. This past holiday weekend, the engine quit Saturday just after I landed and exited the runway. The restart was okay and I taxied to parking. Tonight, Monday the 5th of July, it quit on the runway as I was attempting a touch and go. The brakes work well! I think something other than heat is at work. Both times this weekend I was on the right tank when the engine quit. Going back over my records, and as best as I can recollect, I was always on the right tank when I had problems. Left tank has not caused a stall. Fuel flow from each tank is the same. Am I just very close to having the same problem on the left tank or is there something in the geometry of the right tank that would expose it to more heat? | ||
| Phil & Margie Hodge New member Username: N410mp Post Number: 22 Registered: 01-2000 |
Terry - I haven't had any problems since last annual, but when I did, it was ALWAYS on the right inner tank. The routing on mine is from all 4 tanks to the 4-in-1 valve in the center console, so I don't think there's any difference in heating. I did have a very small leak in one of the fittings from that tank, found at annual, but I find it hard to believe that was a cause. I also complied with Continental's service bulletin re. fuel flows, and corrected the location of the fuel pressure sensor at annual. Phil | ||
| Terry Sack New member Username: Terrysack Post Number: 21 Registered: 11-2002 |
Phil, is there anything specific that you did at annual that you think solved your problem? Do you think the problem is solved, or just hasn't come back to haunt you yet? Terry | ||
| Phil & Margie Hodge New member Username: N410mp Post Number: 23 Registered: 01-2000 |
I wish I knew! The items listed above are all that I can think of that might have affected fuel flow (except filter cleaning), but I have no reason to believe they've solved it. When landing I pull the throttle all the way back. Would put it in the back seat if that would get her to slow down more. As soon as I get some weight on the mains I add a little throttle to keep her above 800 rpm. I think that may have more to do with preventing the problem than anything else. Seems to work. | ||
| Jim Oyler New member Username: Midniteoyl Post Number: 88 Registered: 07-2003 |
Do you guys think you might be in an extended slip during landing? Just a thought - I've seen people slip who swore they werent. Jim | ||
| Phil & Margie Hodge New member Username: N410mp Post Number: 24 Registered: 01-2000 |
Anything's possible. I'll swear that the ball is basically centered, and I know that there is no sideways force on touchdown, but I've never claimed to be a perfect pilot  . However, you've got me complete befuddled with your question. How would a slip cause the engine to quit? It's happened with the tank in use at essentially full, and at one half. I've never landed with the tank less than one half. So what am I missing? | ||
| Jim Oyler New member Username: Midniteoyl Post Number: 89 Registered: 07-2003 |
Hmm... it was me that missed something: Didnt catch that it happened with a full tank. Anyways, I was basically thinking that if you were on final in a slip, that you could be unporting the pickup, allowing air into the lines that wouldnt hit the engine until after touchdown. Was just a thought. Jim | ||
| AndyFawcett New member Username: Drew Post Number: 13 Registered: 03-2003 |
I have an IO550 N1B in a series 2000 Is this the best place to post questions? Since installation I have had consistently high temps on #2 (left rear, just in front of the oil cooler) by 30 - 50 F hotter than the coldest. The rest are fairly uniform & this is only troublesome on a 25/25 climb-out on a hot day when I will trip the 420F alarm & have to back off the power. (EGT's are pretty uniform by-the-way) I have sealed the baffling to the cylinders & the baffle seal looks pretty good. The main thing appears to be that big opening for the oil cooler robbing air from that cylinder. I'm thinking of diverting some extra air to it, perhaps with an aluminum shroud. Has anyone encountered this & already fixed it? Thanks - & if this discussion belongs somewhere else pleasr let me know. AndyF |