| Author | Message | ||
     Nancy Moon Unregistered guest |
Express recently became a dealer for Blue Mountain Avionics (BMA). Allyn has posted more details at: http://www.express-aircraft.com/News.htm | ||
| Jim Ward New member Username: Jehward Post Number: 5 Registered: 02-2000 |
What does this mean for Express Builders? As a dealer, can Express pass along any discounts, or will Express be able to provide panel installation, etc. for the BMA equipment? Thanks. Jim | ||
| Nancy Moon Unregistered guest |
Yes. Express is offering packages of avionics at better prices than individuals can assemble themselves. The combination of FADEC and BMA vastly reduces wiring and eliminates sensor calibration and electrical-noise pickup problems. We’re working on a very modular panel design that will reduce installation cost in the Express avionics shop; and, in fact, we have several BMA installation projects in house now. The beauty of this for the builder who prefers to do this at home means that he can assemble this modular panel with minimal help from an avionics tech. The FADEC engine and BMA are big-ticket items but replace many small items that in the long run will cost you more. Granted, it’s possible to build a low-end VFR panel at a lower cost; but if you want a full featured, color-moving map or IFR panel, BMA is the lowest bottom line. Our own personal plane is going to have BMA EFIS/One built through the Express avionics shop. Jim, Allyn or Roy in the Express office can discuss your specific panel needs and provide you a quote. | ||
| Roy Davis Unregistered guest |
Hi Jim, I want to explain a bit more about the modular panel concept I'm working on. This started way before Nancy and I got involved in the management of EAC. We are building our own Express (N10NM, www.nancymoon.com) and that was the target for this project. The typical light aircraft control panel is made up of many individual instruments and the space behind the panel is a nightmare of wires, cables and hoses. Putting it together in the first place is a hassle and working on it later is literally a pain in the neck. The BMA EFIS/One replaces the majority of panel instruments. The FADEC engine comes with the sensors installed and connected to the engine controller, which is mounted right on the engine and comes pre-calibrated. The information for six cylinder EGT, CHT and other sensors is sent to the EFIS via a serial link in a digital format that the EFIS just has to display. No more chasing electrical noise pickup problems in the wiring between the sensors out under the cowl and the connector on the EFIS CPU box. Another major tangle of wires is the power distribution and protection system. By that I mean the usual switches and circuit breakers that take up so much panel space. The construction is hand wired with exposed contacts. The switches used in most airplanes are unsealed with little or no ignition protection. In an environment where spilled fuel is the norm, the arcs from switching high current is a disaster waiting to happen. The Apollo 1 fire is an extreme example, but it was caused by a power distribution system just what we see in our airplanes. What I am working on is a box that mounts at the bottom of the panel and appears to be part of the panel. On the front are some nice rocker switches with engraved backlit legends. These switches are sealed units and meet the UL1500 Protection for Marine Switches standard. Inside are Polyfuses that have been used in the automotive market for years with much better service life and more stable and faster acting protection specifications than the old fashioned thermal circuit breakers commonly used in our airplanes. On the back of the box will be a few large circular multi-contact connectors so the whole unit can be removed from the panel and tested on the bench. It also gives you more access behind the panel for the rest of the stuff. Since I’m up to my armpits in running Express now I’ve arranged for Dukar, Ltd., the company I started back in 1977 and does custom electronics design, to do the internal design and manufacturing work. I bought a small CNC mill to do the engraving and detailed panel work. Now that we are more directly involved with Express the mill will come in handy for lots of other small parts. Instead of a flat panel where steam gauges look right at home, we are using a contoured composite frame with smaller metal inserts that are literally more modular. If we screw something up or later you want to make a change or addition you aren’t throwing away $600 worth of metal work and $750 worth of engraving. In fact by engraving the individual switches and using the most modern panel components there won’t be any engraving on the panel itself at all. That means we can use a nice hard powder coating that will stand up to abuse and cleaning. This project is still in the design stage, so we are open to more ideas and suggestions. Roy | ||
| Tom R. Hutchison New member Username: Tomhutch Post Number: 133 Registered: 01-2003 |
I like your ideas Roy. A lot of avionics are still rooted in the past. I am also a customer of BMA and am in the process of designing/planning my panel. Jerry Sjostrand built a "slide out" installation for his VM1000 engine monitor. The DPU is mounted behind the display on a roller slide so its very easy to access. I think Jerry posted some pictures on the forum awhile ago. I am considering the same arrangement for the BMA DPU. Of course with the AHRS components in the DPU, it would have to be very solid and level. Tom | ||
| Reinhard Metz New member Username: Reinhard_metz Post Number: 11 Registered: 03-2003 |
I agree, this is a good path. Another great one would be the Garmin G1000. I callled them yesterday, and for now they are only supporting OEMs. Too bad. I'd love to be the first beta experimental, write a bunch of articles, and get an Express into the news! | ||
| Jim Oyler New member Username: Midniteoyl Post Number: 49 Registered: 07-2003 |
G1000 seems like a great piece of hardware.... If you can afford it  I like this idea also, Roy. Any idea on what it would take to have the same 'one cable' design made up for other computer controlled engines, ie - auto conversions? Jim | ||
| Hans Georg Schmid New member Username: Hgschmid Post Number: 16 Registered: 02-2001 |
Reinhard: I am interested in the G1000 as well. So we would already be two (if the prize is not too steep). Speaking of FADEC: The new Rotax 300T might well be worth to look at... HG | ||
| Roy Davis Unregistered guest |
Tom, I was just discussing with Allyn and Mike how to mount the BMA CPU. Putting it right behind the display and using the sub-panel the display is mounted on as an access seems like the best idea. Also we are working on improving the composite panel design to fit more stuff in and provide more structure to support things like the BMA CPU. We can mount the panel frame into the fuselage, then the avionics sub-panels can plug in and screw down from the front, getting rid of a lot of the lay-on-your-back work. Reinhard, Do you have a price for the G1000? I couldn't figure that out Is it going to be WAAS capable? Jim, BMA has worked the interface with the Aerosance FADEC and have some flying. That's why I'm excited about having that interface worked out. I haven't heard anything about other engine computer interfaces being worked on. Would be nice if the engine computer guys would come up with some standard data format to feed into the EFIS. Hans, Keep us posted on the new Rotax. Now that I am busy building airplanes I don't have the time I used to spend browsing the engine and avionics sites ;-) Roy | ||
| Jim Oyler New member Username: Midniteoyl Post Number: 50 Registered: 07-2003 |
Thanks Roy - a 'standardized' format would be great. As far as i know, the G1000 is/will be WAAS capable. http://www.garmin.com/products/g1000/ Haven't got a price yet, but considering the other 'certified' panel prices, I imagine it will be substantially higher than the BMA EFIS/One. Diamond says that 'upgrading' to the G1000 will add about $25,000 to a similarly equipped Dial and Gauge IFR DA40. http://www.avweb.com/newswire/9_41a/briefs/185819-1.html Jim | ||
| Jim Oyler New member Username: Midniteoyl Post Number: 52 Registered: 07-2003 |
Found a Forbes story that claims it costs $25,000 for the stack (obviously the low end, if correct) Still more replaced the electronics of their private planes with the "Garmin stack," a $25,000 set of cockpit instruments that combines navigation and communications gear. Its new G1000 cockpit system replaces all those clunky gauges and indicators with sleek flat-panel displays. http://www.forbes.com/infoimaging/free_forbes/2003/1027/090.html Jim | ||
| JD Unregistered guest |
The $25k "Garmin Stack" is just the combined list prices for just their audio panel, dual 430's and GTX 327 transponder (similar to the "UPSAT stack"). I suspect the G1000 system will probably be in the $40k-$60k range +/- depending on how many screens, capabilities, etc. Avidyne's certified FlightMax Entegra systems are being put into experimentals, and will offer the full nav/com capability the G1000 does (using their new Nexcom system). Something to take a close look at if you're in this price range. - JD | ||
| Allyn Roe Unregistered guest |
I spoke with our Garmin sales rep today and asked him about the G1000. He explained that they are currently focusing on the certified OEM market and they do not have the resources to expand. Most of their time is dealing with the new Cessna Mustang project and their certification along with the 182, 206, and the Diamond line of aircraft. Asking him about the price was like someone asking us what a finished airplane would cost. Because of the integrated equipment the sky is the limit. There is the choice of one display or two, how many nav/com radios you would like, and many other features that are options. All of the radios are remotely mounted so you can have any combo you wish plus add more later. His advice was to check back in six months and hopefully they will have the resources to start dealing with the experimental OEMs. Allyn Roe | ||
| Michael Jastrzebski New member Username: Michal Post Number: 1 Registered: 03-2004 |
I think G1000 is a very exciting product. However my personal opinion is that nothing can match the overall situational awareness offered by Synthetic Vision/Highway-In-The-Sky. Chelton Flight Systems makes one but it is quite expensive. BMA is apparently now testing their own SV/HITS and they claim to have improved on the Chelton's design. I can't wait for BMA folks to update their website and show us what their HITS looks like. Kudos to BMA folks for pushing the envelope ... Michael J. | ||
| Charles M. Robinson New member Username: F15epilot Post Number: 6 Registered: 02-2004 |
I haven't seen anyone mention PCFlight Systems, Ocala, FL. Check their web site (pcflightsystems.com). I called them a week back to get a ball-park figure on what I could get for around $3K. Here's what it worked out to: IPaq systme for the display/computation GPS/WAAS-enabled receiver DTED-Data ground MountainScope moving map software (shows elevation via terrain shading/banding and highway in the sky) E-Gyro (electronic attitude reference source) Pitot-Static input system (interfaces A/S and altitude for computing winds/VVI/accel/decel) E-Gyro standby attitude reference Single-simulated HUD on the IPAQ w/all NAV data Engine monitor display (CHT/EGT/FF/RPM/OIL) The whole system installs in minutes and is portable (except the pitot-static part and Eng mon). For a few grand more, you can swap the IPAQ for a 5" panel display; for $9k, you can get it all on a 10" color EFIS which has all engine data, maps, highway in the sky, etc. They'll work to customize the setup to your plane. Nice folks. I plan to put their Ipaq in, and upgrade to the 10" a year or so down the road. Chuck | ||
| Eric Holmberg New member Username: Erich Post Number: 82 Registered: 05-2002 |
I'm of the opinion that you only need an EFIS if you are going to be in IFR. If you're IFR, you don't want an iPAQ with the Windows CE/Pocket PC house-of-cards in it. Also, be sure to check the gyro units that these guys are selling. The cost has come down an amazing amount for the sensors, but they still require a lot of care and signal processing to get a reliable signal out of them under various temperatures and vibration levels. | ||
| Michael Jastrzebski New member Username: Michal Post Number: 3 Registered: 03-2004 |
Eric makes a valid point. On one hand it is amazing that there is an EFIS/E-Gyro available out there for almost any wallet on the other the question remains which one can be 'trusted' in solid IFR over mountains. | ||
| LOUIE LACY New member Username: Llacy Post Number: 73 Registered: 10-1999 |
If I am not mistaken all the above mentioned EFIS are not IFR certified so you can't use them anyway Lou | ||
| Eric Holmberg New member Username: Erich Post Number: 83 Registered: 05-2002 |
You can use anything you want for situational awareness . . . but what I hate worse than not enough data is having incorrect data. The units that I've looked at are the Blue Mountain system which uses an AHRS from Xbow which is very high quality (I haven't checked to see if they still use this unit) and the Dynon units. The Dynon units use individual sensors and several small 8-bit microprocessors for their system. Their EFIS is a spinoff of a UAV autopilot that they are also working on. I stopped by their office and talked with their development team when I was in Bothell, WA on business. They are a nice group of people. So, all I'm saying is to do a little bit of homework before you plunk down any money (even if it's a small amount) and make sure you are getting something that will meet your needs. Oh, and make sure you pound on that software a bit -- you can never trust those software people  | ||
| Michael Jastrzebski New member Username: Michal Post Number: 4 Registered: 03-2004 |
Yes, they are not IFR certified but if I am not mistaken EFIS/One from BMA can be hooked up to an external certified GPS (say Garmin 430) and then you are legal. | ||
| Charles M. Robinson New member Username: F15epilot Post Number: 7 Registered: 02-2004 |
Agree with the statement, reliably accurate information is better than information packaged for ease of consumption. That said, I am reminded of the statement in my F-15E Tech Order (Dash-1) that states, "The Heads Up Displan (HUD) lacks sufficient warning information and should therefore not be used as the primary instrument reference in the aircraft." There are even directives that when flying approaches in IFR or at night, an ADI will be displayed on at least one Multi-function Display (three in the front; four in the back) in each cockpit. After 2000 hours in that bird, I can tell you that most pilots still fly off the hud, using the ADI on the MFD as a backup. For my Express, I will have a conventional panel of round dials as well as the PCFlight Systems displays. And when all else fails, if the turn needle says you're turning, and the altimeter is unwinding, then those two votes count more than any other display, electronic or otherwise. | ||
| Jim Weir New member Username: Weirdjim Post Number: 4 Registered: 09-2003 |
I see a lot of folks talk about "IFR certified" equipment. Would somebody please quote chapter and verse where it is stated exactly what is required to be "IFR certified" as regards a particular piece of equipment? | ||
| Roy Davis New member Username: Royhdavis Post Number: 33 Registered: 01-2003 |
Here is what the EAA has said about it. http://www.bluemountainavionics.com/pdf/IFR%20equipment.pdf | ||
| Jim Ward New member Username: Jehward Post Number: 12 Registered: 02-2000 |
Here is a pic of the BMA servo installation for my BMA auto-pilot. Jim  | ||
| Michael Jastrzebski New member Username: Michal Post Number: 5 Registered: 03-2004 |
I guess different strokes for different folks .. This is what Greg Richter of BMA writes on the subject of a "conventional panel": I think this boils down to the devil you know versus the devil you don't. My airplane will have only one mechanical device in it -- the engine, and I'd make it ion drive if I could! I'm not a big fan of rotating machinery unless they've got laminated windings attached. The point I tried to make, if poorly, was to have two ways of doing anything required to fly safely. For me, that means a Lite or a second EFIS on a battery. For some, that means a T&B and ASI. For Jerry it means a cat that always lands on it's feet, but that's a whole 'nother story. For my dime, I'll fly with all electronics and a battery backup system. My vac pump crapped at 51 hours (in a cloud) forcing me into the world of ADHRS, so there you have it. | ||
| Eric Holmberg New member Username: Erich Post Number: 84 Registered: 05-2002 |
The only GPS that I know of that is certified for primary navigation (i.e. allowing you to have just an EFIS and a GPS) would be the UPSAT (now Garmin) CNX80. Of course, I really think that's rather foolish since getting a NAV/COMM is not that expensive in the grand scheme of things and allows you to have a backup glide slope, etc for IFR approaches when there isn't a published GPS approach. http://www.garmin.com/products/cnx80/ |