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Exosphere Aircraft Company, Inc.
New member
Username: Exosphere
Post Number: 13
Registered: 08-2005
| | Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 09:35 am: | |
The Exosphere Aircraft Company has recieved final aproval and has begun trading under the symbol EXSA. The current price is out of market so that no one will be tempted to purchase shares prior to the market makers determining an appropriate price. I encourage you to keep abreast of the progress. I will note that the Express assets are not currently merged into the public company. This is due to the complications that arose as a result of the completeness and reliability of the books and the uncertain debt structure. As the books get cleaned up and the debts resolved it is the intention but in no way a should be constued as a commitment to merge the Express assets into EXSA. In the meantime the company will focus on this becomming a reality and on its LSA project. |
Gary H. Wolfelt
New member
Username: Wolfelt
Post Number: 47
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 11:01 am: | |
Mr. Henthorn/Exosphere: I have heard by the grape vine that there has been an interest in selling off the Express molds and tooling. If this is indeed the case, where does that leave those of us that are interested in seeing the Express Company continue as a viable (insurable)experimental aircraft? Since as you put it in your above post, there is no "commitment" to merge the Express assets into EXSA, does that mean that the production and sale of parts and the future survival of Express is no longer the "promise" that we were lead to believe (by Roy/Nancy/you)was imminent? There has been a lot of side stepping of direct questions that have been posed to you and your organization in the past. What all of us really want (and deserve) from you are direct answers to direct questions? As you well know, there is a mountain of debt associated with Express, LLC. As you had stated to me personally by telephone in the past, you had proposed to use some of the proceeds from the sale of the stock to pay off this debt. If Express is not brought into EXSA, then it would seem logical to me that there wouldn't be any funds with which to do this. So here are a few direct questions for you. Have you really offered the Express assets for sale? (yes or no, nothing more)? If not, will you commit to offer parts and kits for sale in the future (yes or no)? Will you commit to the manufacture and delivery of the missing parts required by those builders that have paid for these parts/kits at your expense (yes or no)? Will you commit to the reimbursement of funds to those of us that have spent the time, effort and money to acquire the parts that we were shorted in an effort to complete our projects (yes or no)? I suppose that I have missed a few important questions here. But a full explanation of where the Express project is really headed without a bunch of mumbo jumbo answers is all that we have been waiting to hear. Please see how good of a job you can do with direct answers to these questions for EVERYONE to see on this forum. I do not expect, want or anticipate a direct response to me. We want EVERYONE to know exactly where you and we stand on these questions. Please advise. GHW
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Jim Oyler
New member
Username: Midniteoyl
Post Number: 108
Registered: 07-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 10:07 am: | |
I'm lost..... |
Exosphere Aircraft Company, Inc.
New member
Username: Exosphere
Post Number: 14
Registered: 08-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 09:36 am: | |
Gary, thank you for the directness of your communication. Due to the fact that you have requested that our communication go through lawyers I will be respecting that protocol and will not respond directly to you. I suspect that the points you have brought up are of general intrest or concern to others as well and therefore I will address this to those who are not ajoined with you in an effort to respect protocol yet communicate what I feel are worthwhile responses. The manufacturing rights, molds are not for sale nor have they been offered. The only pressure to sell the rights have come from a group who wishes to sell the assets in order to recover some of thier losses. I have made comments that if selling the assets would take care of all of the debts of the company and there was a better home for them then that would be one thing but to sell them and only take care of a few is something that I will not allow. Those comments were made not to give the impression that that was a desired direction but only to make it perfectly clear that I will not engage in nor allow a small representation of the debt to participate in recovery disproportionate with the overall debt of the company by the sale of the assets. I have had some preliminary discussions regarding the licenseing of the wing design for use on another project as a potential method to alleviate a debt with an existing express builder. Those discussions have not materialized into an agreement but we were open and remain so to any feasable resolution. The answer directly is no we have not offered the molds and tooling and at this time have no plans nor intent in doing so. The primary business directive (outside of cleaning up the balance sheet) is to make available all parts that are required or have been required to complete, fly, maintain, and insure the Express Aircraft. That being said in doing this research there exist some challenges that center around the retractable gear system and a variety (or at least a couple) of design considerations that need to be worked out. In addition, there are some early parts associated with the early Wheeler or Ariga (I hope I said that correctly) specifically dealing with the cruciform tail and other fuselage pieces that are not currently capable of being manufactured without re-tooling that will probably never be available. Some of the missing parts have been delivered either out of inventory or by allowing the manufacture of them. There is no commitment to offer kits at this time. We feel that the current kit is in need of updateing and some re-design in order to be a best in category candidate. I am hopeful that the parts that were really never available (retract) will become available and have a plan to be able to accomplish this but it requires the involvement of others (who have stated that they are agreeable) however there are no definitive agreements at this time so a full commitment is out of my ability. The bottom line is that if the isuues that surround the Express company can be resolved then EXSA would be very proud to allow the proposed merger. What started out as a "little plane I knew nothing about" has captivated my senses in style, performance and mostly potential. I recognise that my answers can be frustrating in thier regulatory compliance. That not telling everone exactly what they want to hear is not the popular (short term) but prudent approach. I sincerely hope that we will all be able to move forward and the the Express can become the plane it has been capable of becoming. |
Jim Oyler
New member
Username: Midniteoyl
Post Number: 109
Registered: 07-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 08:19 pm: | |
So your not going to be offering the Express as a kit? I am one who was saving up to purchase a kit, had it when the bottom fell out, and have been waiting since. Am I wasting my time?
As stated above, I'm lost. Everyone else here either 'knows' whats happening, or went on without.
LSA? Licensing? Retract? No kits?
If I could be told, without the banter, what is going on, I would really appreciate it.
midniteoyl@gmail.com
574-806-3242
Thanks, Jim |
Joe Chisolm
New member
Username: Jchisolm
Post Number: 10
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 08:47 am: | |
My 2c on this... Here we go again,
I started my project with Kit 1 (left wing) in 1989. I put the deposit down at Sun-N-Fun that year. Since that time, I've watched more changes of company than I can really remember. I was some what lucky in that I was able to get almost all the parts I would need with a lot of help from Larry Olson. Every time a new set of owners come along they immediately come up with numerous reasons to "re-design" parts of the plane. I can understand, I'm an engineer, that's what we do. I'm also an engineering manager and I know when it time to say "enough" and ship the product.
Yes, there are some build issues with the current design, and yes it does not "Fly like a 172". I'm still building (for over 15 years on and off) a CT model. I know it will fly differently than other planes I've flown. So what, get in a TB-10 and you'll know you are not in Kansas anymore. Along with other features of the Express, the CT was a true product differentiator. The issues surrounding the tail started back in the 1991 time frame, with the first customer built plane. Frankly, the person put the tail on wrong.
Now we have Exosphere starting down the same rocky road. Have to finish the retract, have to re-design the "this" and fix the "that". If there are issues with manufacturability and/or cost and labor reductions, of course you look at those issues. But for other items I have to question the rationale. As has been said so many times, nothing sells kits like kits completed and on the flight line. Manufacture the kits, with good documentation and reasonable estimated build time and quit redesigning the damn thing. Forget the re-tract. Exosphere will never sell enough kits to recover the R&D expense and on-going cost. They need to take what they have and get product out the door.
From various press releases, etc (just google Exosphere Aircraft), Exosphere wants to be in the LSA business. That's OK, a mistake, but their call. However, I dont think LSA and Express are any where close to a match for manufacturing, business model, marketing and a host of other issues. If Exosphere tries to do both, both will fail. Maybe the thinking is they can chop up the Express and turn it into a LSA - good luck. I've been watching the kit industry since 1987. I looked at lot's of planes, from the Prescott Pusher (anyone remember that one?), to Glasair, Lancair, Vans and so many others. Van's is the leader. I think the reason is good design, good performance,good kit and reasonable build times. When I started this entire saga, my mission profile was governed by the need for 4 seats. That limited my choices. If I were to make the choice today it would probably be a RV-10.
Here's a link. Almost a year old but from comments in this thread, I think it still applies:
http://www.primezone.com/newsroom/news.html?d=86744
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doug shell
New member
Username: Rv76
Post Number: 5
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 01:28 pm: | |
i dont usually put in my 2c but here goes. i have built 5 airplanes, a fisher fp101, an express, a velocity xlrg, and two harmon rockets which are rv4s on steroids. as a technical advisor for the eaa i have assisted other builders with their projects, and none of the planes i have built or assisted in has had what i would call a clear set of building plans all have their problems including van's. in my opinon the express was the most difficult to build of all of them it took me 2.5 years. the difficulty was mostly related to getting parts, and like a lot of builders i got stuck for several thousand dollars when they shut their doors. putting that aside i have been flying my express for almost two years and find it to be very easy to fly. i compare it to a fast c182, it will almost land itself. it is by far the best aiplane i have ever flown, or owned it is quiet, fast,( i flight plan at 180kts) comfortable, economical, easy to fly, carries a large payload,(full of fuel i can still carry over 1200# of passengers and baggage) and the landing gear is down all the time. for what its worth maybe its time to quit crying over spilled milk and get to work on your projects. we all lost money, so the express winds up costing more than you planned, when you start flying your express i think you will realize it was all worth it. i for one would like to see the express marketed as a kit even if it is along with a light sport plane. at least it would be available. when i built my express i purchased parts from vans, glassair, lanceair, velocity, home depot, and any where else i could find to get the parts i needed to finish, and yes i had already paid for the parts i needed from express. at the time i looked at the options either wait for express to ship or find the parts i needed elsewhere. i wanted to finish my plane so rather thatn dwell on the fact i couldnt get the parts i needed from express i bit the bullet, and went else where, which wound up costing me more but at least i finished. those of you who are looking for express to supply you the parts are only waisting time. the parts are available from other suppliers. as far as exosphere goes i dont have a clue as to what their position is, but i do know that if you put your hand in a hornets nest enough times you probably wont want to repeat the experience. builders of the thunder mustang went together to buy the production rights in order for the builders to finish their projects. i have a friend who was part of that group, and his plane wound up costing him almost twice what the original cost was, but he got the parts to finish. just rambling hope some of this is food for thought. |
Jim Oyler
New member
Username: Midniteoyl
Post Number: 110
Registered: 07-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 11:35 pm: | |
Well... after talking to several people, I'm giving up.
The LSA we cant afford. From what I know, nobody here could.
And kits are no longer offered, apparently, other than what can be 'bought back'.
The Express is being changed, production streamlined, and modifications made to bring it through the certification process.
The 'engineer' for the project is Jim Bede...
The composite guy is Ron Jones Jr, of hydroplane racing fame.
I dont see it happening....
Jim
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Gary H. Wolfelt
New member
Username: Wolfelt
Post Number: 48
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 06:18 am: | |
Very Interesting Joe! Thanks for the link. It reads in part as follows:
"Madison Bay Holdings Acquires Stake in Light-Sport Aircraft Company
SEATTLE, Sept. 26, 2005 (PRIMEZONE) -- Madison Bay Holdings, Inc. (Pink Sheets:MDBY), a marketer and distributor of Recreational Vehicles, Powerboats and Leisure Watercraft, announced today that the Company has acquired a 20% stake in Exosphere Aircraft Company, Inc., a producer of light-sport aircrafts, including the very popular "Express" model, manufactured by Express Aircraft Company, a subsidiary of Exosphere."}
Now this was a PRESS RELEASE. So what are the real facts (truth) here. Is Express a part of Exosphere or not? Some more fancy talk? Another diversion? Inquiring minds want to know. GHW
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Barry Hecker
New member
Username: Golfirving
Post Number: 1
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 05:04 am: | |
I had selected the Express as the 4 place plane to build mainly due to payload. I wanted to carry 4 "adults" and golf clubs on a 1000 mile trip. None of the others seem to have the payload capacity. This includes the RV-10 and the Lancair Super ES. Since it appears Exposphere is not going to get back into the kit business, are there any other suggestions? I have looked at the Comp Air 7, but they seem to want to put a turbine on everything, which makes me think it needs more power to fly. |
Barry Hecker
New member
Username: Golfirving
Post Number: 2
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 05:04 am: | |
I had selected the Express as the 4 place plane to build mainly due to payload. I wanted to carry 4 "adults" and golf clubs on a 1000 mile trip. None of the others seem to have the payload capacity. This includes the RV-10 and the Lancair Super ES. Since it appears Exposphere is not going to get back into the kit business, are there any other suggestions? I have looked at the Comp Air 7, but they seem to want to put a turbine on everything, which makes me think it needs more power to fly. |
Exosphere Aircraft Company, Inc.
New member
Username: Exosphere
Post Number: 15
Registered: 08-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 05:28 pm: | |
Wow, what a lot of information. Not all true however. Ron Jones was consulted as to how to utilize more modern techniques and materials. Much was learned but there is not a current business relationship. Exosphere very well may offer kits. It is not something that can be committed at this time. I stated that the company would not produce kits until after it had fixed the parts problem if at all and that if someone wanted one now then there were some that we were aware of. The reason for discussing the retract and not commiting those parts at this time is because I do not know exactly what parts those are and because a final design is not yet complete (or at least agreed on) we do not have control over the availability. The company is not expending any engineering effort at this time to finish the retract design. Forgeting the retract might be a good option unless you are one of the brave individuals who currently have one. Forgetting this group of builders is not an option. The redesign was focused on manufacturability, ease of build, preciseness of tolerances such as to allow parts that were interachangale (better that now) and a migration to the possibility of superior materials. Jim Bede is not an engineer. Madison Bay is NOT involved in the project. If you can afford an Express then you can afford any LSA. |
Jim Oyler
New member
Username: Midniteoyl
Post Number: 111
Registered: 07-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 06:20 pm: | |
And thats the problem: The Express was the perfect 4 place plane. Everyone I have ever talked to would have bought and built one "if only it wasnt for...(place company name here)... not being able to ... (place problem here). I mean, its been soooo long since the plane was introduced, and still nobody seems to know how to market, produce, and deliver it. And dont tell me its becuase of the price, The Lancair IV and IVP still seem to be selling good despite the cost, and problems (everyone knows the fit and finish of a Lancair kit leaves ALOT to be desired). Whats needed is not a road to certification (not now), but a real good marketing and production plan. The kits need to sell, the parts need to be delivered, and planes need to be on the flight line. Period. Thinking of doing anything else with it is just wasting time, and money.
Jim
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Jim Oyler
New member
Username: Midniteoyl
Post Number: 112
Registered: 07-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 11:21 am: | |
Was only conveying my thoughts on the current situation. I, for one, do not see the Express as being a viable option for me in the near future. As I said on the phone, I do not want a previously worked on kit. Nor would I like a kit thats pieced together from several kits. I 'might' consider full kit with only the fuse together, but really dint want to do that unless there's no other options. I have seen way to many partial kits for sale where the work already done was way under par. I cannot place an increased risk on my family by trusting someone else's work.
You say 'the company would not produce kits until after it had fixed the parts problem',yet you follow that with a 'if at all'. You left me with the impression during our conversation that the 'if at all' was the point to be emphasized.
As for the certification and LAS projects: all I can say is that I, and a couple of others, got something different out of the conversations.
Jim Bede 'not an engineer'? You might be correct there <grinz>, however, he does bill himself as one. Personally, I wouldn't take a taxi ride in a plane designed by him. Just my personal feelings and opinion.
Point of note: I am not involved with anyone here on this board, I am especially not involved with any action against the current owners of Express, legal or otherwise. I am just a guy who is looking to buy and build what I consider to be the best 4-place plane out there.
Jim |
Joe Chisolm
New member
Username: Jchisolm
Post Number: 13
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, October 15, 2006 - 09:13 pm: | |
Any news from on Exosphere?
I noticed that the domain exosphereaircraft.com has expired. Not sure if this was their domain name.
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Brian McKinney
New member
Username: Bmckinney
Post Number: 100
Registered: 05-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 12:23 am: | |
Looks like Exosphere is hiring...
http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/trd/259562120.html
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